Pretty interesting approach to make an X server that is essentially "Wayland-like" (merging display server/compositor by default, isolated apps by default, no remoting of GLX, dropping legacy protocol features to the point of breaking compat with the core protocol, etc.). Not sure who this is for, but by itself it looks like a fairly reasonable set of choices.
> by itself it looks like a fairly reasonable set of choices.
I have not tried this myself, so I can not speak from experience,
but if they have removed features that people used, then they are
in a similar situation as wayland. So I don't see what the difference
then would be. Perhaps your analysis was also incomplete?
It depends on whether their reasons for "absolutely having to have X11" hinge on actual compatibility with e.g. old binaries or wanting full remoting without streaming pixels.
This project would satisfy people who really actually want Wayland, but were upset by transitional pains or interactions they had around it and want to stick with X11 just-cause while getting some similar benefits. This arguably does describe some people but not sure it's a whole lot in the long run.
But who knows, maybe this could also make an easier to maintain XWayland some day, or a nice basis for implementing more esoteric X11 bits down the road vs. the older Xorg codebase.
I don't "actually want Wayland" because I want the simplicity of X and the ability to run my own wm, but I have no need for legacy X11 requests, for some values of "legacy". Whether this will become viable for me remains to be seen, but I need very little from my X11 server.
Look into river. It has the window management and keybindings able to be offered by other tools (I have an idea to implement one using XMonad's layouts).
It also vastly improved battery on my Dell Pro laptop. 58% battery used in 7h45m (light compilation day, but no suspend).
Not for the client, or if you want to write a wm and is forced to write a compositor.
And actually I'm not even even convinced about the server if talking about a minimal server like this that insists on DRI/GBM, and ditches all the old rendering cruft.
Wayland made writing WMs needlessly hard, and the benefits of Wayland were frankly not real - most of the reasons given in 2011 were patched in to X11 later. All the Wayland rewrite got us was a situation where Wayland is both bleeding-edge and obsolete simultaneously. Say what you like about X11, but by the time people unironically pushed for mass Wayland adoption, X11 was stable and boringly so.
The future of WMs is, IMO, Arcan - https://arcan-fe.com/ - but that's an ambitious project and I don't blame the main developer for deliberately going out of his way to avoid advertising it before it's ready. In the meanwhile, Wayland and X11 both more-or-less work with the occasional major pain in the ass.
> "most of the reasons given in 2011 were patched in to X11 later"
This definitely doesn't match my memory, and I was there :) Most of the good reasons remain unavailable in X11 to this day.
There definitely were some attempts to advance X11 that post-date Wayland, most notably the proposals by Keith Packard, but they never got much traction.
The 3 justifications I remember for Wayland were security (isolating windows from each other), multi DPI, and eliminating tearing. All are now features of XLibre.
Why? People complain that the YAML specification/protocol is too complex. This may be, but I found using YAML much, much easier and nicer than XML. So to me these two things are not necessarily interconnected. You can have a great implementation and a crappy protocol; but also a great protocol and a crappy implementation.
The people who absolutely have to have X11 like myself usually have reasons. It sounds like currently a lot of those reasons for using X11 would prevent using this X server. Like reliable non-fragmented and widely supported screenreader protocol. Or the ability to do keyboard and mouse sharing.
>Applications will be isolated from each other by default and can only interact with other applications either through a GUI prompt asking for permission, such as with screen recorders, where it will only be allowed to record the window specified or by explicitly giving the application permission before launched (such as a window manager or external compositor).
Accessibility? Sure. Everything else? Nah, I'm sorry. There are countless ways to do remoting with Wayland. There are countless ways to do kb+mouse sharing.
You realize that's worse, right? And to be clearer: core Wayland protocol does not have countless ways. It has zero.
Instead of a single protocol with the strong X11 reference X server the wayland compositors pick and choose between libinput, or libei, or libportal with the InputCapture PR, xdg-desktop-portal with the InputCapture interface, some I've probably missed, or maybe you have nothing at all (weston). It's a gamble if your choice of desktop environment and it's wayland compositor's non-core wayland protocols will match up with those the developer for $software chose. On X11 linux everything that works somewhere works everywhere. With the various waylands if you stay within your desktop's ecosystem you'll probably not notice, but go beyond it and you will.
Each wayland desktop pretty much runs it's own compositor with it's own set of third party libs because the wayland core protocol spec is very minimal. I would say incomplete. ref: https://wayland.app/protocols/
Anything special about Raspberry Pi's that require X11? Raspberry Pi OS defaults to Wayland nowadays, and there's specific kiosk Wayland compositors like Cage (https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage).
"The devs of x11" is a wide category, considering how many X11 devs weren't even born when X11 was first written. Plenty of X11 devs objected to Wayland and tried to patch X11, but when half the devs decide they want to write a replacement and put the original into maintenance-mode, there's not much you can do.
You could fork it. X11 hasn't shipped a major release since 2005, the likelihood of a complete overhaul making it upstream was slim to none even in 2009. X11 developers were better-off focusing on stability, and the Wayland devs moved on. There was no conspiracy to kill either project.
This is a great project! I like and use Wayland but the portal protocols and extension mechanism does leave a lot to be desired. Wayland is still quite a way behind Windows and macOS in terms of what productivity users need
An X11 rewrite with some security baked in is an awesome approach. Will be watching!
I thought for a long time that rather than move to Wayland, we could come up with a tidied-up version of X. Sounds like a good and useful project, I hope it progresses.
It was always an option, but "just" needed someone to dedicate all their time to it and pull in a group of long term maintainers. The real question is what will happen with the project in 2 years and will it be stable for day to day use.
If you take the time to read through that (very partial) list of cruft and footguns in X11 it probably makes it a little easier to understand why a clean-slate approach was able to attract momentum and why many hands-on involved developers were relatively tired of X11. Critics would of course respond that backwards compatibility is worth the effort and rewrites are often the wrong call, etc. It's the Python 2/3 debate and many others.
Python 3 was actively antagonistic to Python 2 code for no reason other than to lecture us about how we were doing things wrong, writing code to support 2 and 3 to help transition was dumb etc etc.
For example, in python 2 you could explicitly mark unicode text with u"...". That was actively BLOCKED with python 3.0 which supposedly was about unicode support! The irony was insane, they could of just no-oped the u"". I got totally sick of the "expert" language designers with no real world code shipping responsibilities lecturing me. Every post about this stuff was met by comments from pedantic idiots. So every string had to have a helper function around it. Total and absolute garbage. They still haven't explained to my satisifaction why not support u"..." to allow a transition more easily to 3.
Luckily sanity started prevailing around 3.5 and we started to see a progression - whoever was behind this should be thanked. The clueless unicode everything was walked back and we got % for bytes so you could work with network protocols again (where unicode would be STUPID to force given the installed base). We got u"" back.
By 3.6 we got back to reasonable path handling on windows and the 3 benefits started to come without antagonistic approaches / regressions from 2. But that was about 8 years? So that burnt a lot of the initial excitement.
BS, windows and macos cant even do proper window managing for a start, and then it just goes downwards from there on.. You can perhaps install various weird third party things, but it does not come with it by default.
If you took people who absolutely never tried any computing, and gave them macos, windows, and for example Plasma, they would NOT consider windows or macos to be ready for the desktop. If you go 15 years back, even way more so.
even in the early 2000s, windows was so hilariously crappy that you had to make floppy disks to even get to install the thing. If PCs didnt come preloaded with windows, regular users would never ever be able to install it, versus the relative ease a typical linux distribution was to install. This is also one of the large reasons that when their windows slowed down due to being a piece of shit with 1000000 toolbars, people threw it out and bought a new, despite the fact that a reinstall would have solved it.
15 years back people were given Windows macOS and Linux and people voted which OS were ready for the Desktop and which were not. The only BS is your inflammatory contribution to this topic.
I don't use a Mac, but have you ever used Windows?
I mean, maybe you have, but if you are not fussy then at worst MacOS is quirky and Windows and Linux are identical and merely have different icons.
If you pay a little bit of attention you will notice that on linux things seem more flexible and intuitive.
If you are very finnicky, there is nothing that comes close to X11 window managers when it comes to window management flexibility, innovation and power.
Windows allows you to launch applications from a menu or via search. You can switch between windows with a mouse or keyboard shortcuts. Windows can either be floating, arranged in pseudo-tiled layers, or full screen. KDE can pretty much do the same under Wayland. Ditto for Gnome under Wayland, albeit to a lesser degree. That covers the bases for most people.
X11 window managers were a mixed bag. While there were a few standouts, most of the variation was in the degree to which they could be configured and how they were configured. There may be fewer compositors for Wayland because of the difficulty in developing them, but the ones that do exist do standout.
I don't really understand what is supposedly missing in Wayland for productivity users? At work I have been using gnome with the wayland backend for years at this point and I can't really figure out anything that's missing.
This is the kind of initiative I’d prefer to see from X preservationists. Great job, I hope it succeeds. I prefer Wayland, but there’s still a place in the world for X; it just needs new dev teams to shoulder the burden.
I have no idea how well this one works, but I am all up for
more projects that can compete against the singularization
that corporations currently try (see paid developers for
wayland, GNOME and now also KDE). I wonder how much money
would be needed to make the xorg server adapt to the modern
era; I don't even know the featureset that is missing for
this either. But I also know that wayland, after 20 years
(!!!), will never cover those requests users had over tohse
20 years, simply because it tries to cater to a narrow
specification wanted by corporations rather than the people -
so much is now clear (wayland protocol was released in
2008, so it is soon 20 years actually; in a few days we
have 2026, so it will be 18 years).
As the application author you can set the release mode in the build script so that the release flag looks like `zig build --release` instead, and the user doesn't choose the optimization mode.
As a user you can pass `--release` to `zig build` to request release mode. If the application doesn't want to pick for you, you'll get an error and then you can pick for yourself.
In this case, it looks like the author of Phoenix wants to choose ReleaseSafe as the official release mode of the application.
Multiple screens support is listed as non-goal. Would that prevent its usage with window managers which support virtiaul desktops? I am i3 user and it is a critical feature for me.
Is this why back in the day sometimes a Linux distro would have a multi-monitor setup where each monitor was an actual different desktop cube for example. There was a time when each window for an Nvidia graphics card in that type of configuration could not be moved from one screen to another, etc.
The part that is counterintuitive to most people when it comes to the "server" terminology is that, with X, your end-user workstation (which may be an incredibly dumb X terminal) is the "display server", which means you remote into a server (in the traditional sense) elsewhere, which then acts as an X client by making requests to your local machine to display windows.
The way most people think about it, "client" is your local machine and "server" is the remote machine that has lots of applications and is potentially multi-user, but X turns that backwards. The big iron is the client and the relatively dumb terminal is the server.
I think the confusion is obvious, given a little empathy for the range of people who use computers.
The server is usually a remote machine, especially back in the time when "client-server" architecture was emerging in mainstream (business) vernacular.
Please don't imagine that I don't fully understand this.
Nevertheless, X11 "server" and "client" have confused very smart and highly technical people. I have had the entertainment of explaining it dozens of times, though rarely recently.
And honestly, still, a server is usually a remote machine in all common usage. When "the server's down", it is usually not a problem on your local machine.
Yes, it’s simultaneously logical if you look at how it works and immensely strange if you don’t understand the architecture. (As has been noted all the way back to the UNIX-HATERS Handbook[1], although, pace 'DonHopkins, the NeWS Book uses the same terminology—possibly because it was written late enough to contain promises of X11/NeWS.)
Programmers aren't good at checking if the name is taken. We've done this particular one before. Phoenix (Firefox) had to change names because of Phoenix Technologies, then again because of the Borland Firebird Database.
Bit of an observation, but I've noticed that there's been quite a few pragmatic projects started in Zig. Bun vs Deno comes to mind (one focused on DX, the other on security), and now this vs Wayland. Not to say that designing something properly is wrong, just that it tends to throw away a lot of important interoperability.
If you are not going to implement X11 drawing ops and XRender (which I, and many others, still use heavily), what's even the point? Any 'modern' program that only does client-side rendering already supports Wayland. AFAIK GTK 3 doesn't even support DRI on X11 unless you somehow trick it into using the abandoned OpenGL Cairo backend, but that's not modern enough apparently.
It talks about trimming 'legacy' features and specifically says they are omitting 'font-related' operations. That obviously means no useful core X11 application will work (unless you count xlogo and xeyes). Whether the XRender glyph cache mechanism is included is unclear. It also says only DRI is *currently* supported, but maybe that's incidental?
Cool project I guess, don't see the point but technically interesting. Will be cool to have another modern display protocol/server. I personally would have rewritten Wlroots in Zig or something, but I guess this is more interesting.
XLibre is a joke. They're making changes for the sake of changes: for example, commit aefde9 strips out vendoring in an ad-hoc, incomplete fashion (introducing a minor spacing bug in the process); and commit aafd986 replaces `int` with `unsigned int` (instead of `size_t`), failing to properly fix the bug that the compiler warnings identified (albeit, also removing an unrelated C footgun along the way, so this does look like a bug fix). The main author has a history of cowboy commits: 533c45e (which made it into mainline Xorg before he got kicked out) straight-up prevents hw/xfree86/os-support/bsd/arm_video.c from compiling, so it's clear there's no actual testing taking place.
I doubt the XLibre authors understand the X security model, either – they never do, in forks like this – and they've alienated most of the security researchers who might otherwise clean up after them.
Phoenix and Wayback are much more interesting projects, in my book. Wayback's designed to actually work, and I expect it to be production-ready much sooner; but I expect Phoenix to be the more technically interesting project, since it's deliberately breaking from the X11 spec.
Yeah but wayback doesn't lend itself to the "omg my x11 I could neverrrrr :huff-emoji: :huff-emoji:" hysteria.
That's all this comes down to. Every single fucking last thread about Wayland on HN is this way. Every fucking last one. Tall about the vocal minority. Just absurdity.
You have accessibility complaints and don't care about the coordinated efforts across toolkits to make a material improvement? Okay. But every single god damn other issue is a distro issue and people on HN insisting their Linux trial 10 years ago is still authoritative today. Fucking ridiculous.
Early contributor to sway and cosmic, most of the Wayland complaints you read are handwave-y bullshit, idk what else to say.
Here's two complaints: it's a security theater, and it's horribly balkanized by design.
On X, I can run tools like xmacro or xdotool to automate the desktop to my heart's content. On Wayland, this isn't supported "for my security" and my remaining options boil down to either using a tool that works one level of abstraction lower (requires root and/or a daemon), or a tool made exclusively for my DE if one even exists. What used to be a cohesive environment with portable knowledge and tools is replaced by incomplete, broken, or outright missing tools and a complete lack of parity across DEs. For what? Am I supposed to be happy about this?
OK, you can't have your preferred environment because someone else has a different use-case.
Moreover, people will condescend to you and insist your setup never worked, nobody ever used it, and nobody cares that it's going away. Plus, they state that you are just being difficult, if not delusional, when you say that you are quite happy with how things are. I mean, your way never worked, so how could it have been your way at all? You must be a troll, troll. Stop trolling.
This is a really really bad comment.
I've never heard of the framework you're talking about and I thought you were talking about the Firefox prototype.
I don't have an opinion on the matter, but it's pretty popular. According to [1], Phoenix "was used extensively over the past year" by 2.4% of responders.
It's still a silly comment. The Phoenix web framework is a little over a decade old, and there are many other tech things named Phoenix that pre-date it, even just within the web application space. I assume Apache Phoenix and the web framework have a lot more to be annoyed at each other for.
I’ve been on hn for almost 10 years, and have been doing mostly frontend development for the whole time. As far as I know I have never seen it mentioned. But then I have no interest in elixir, so I might just not have remembered the name even if I saw it.
I have not tried this myself, so I can not speak from experience, but if they have removed features that people used, then they are in a similar situation as wayland. So I don't see what the difference then would be. Perhaps your analysis was also incomplete?
This project would satisfy people who really actually want Wayland, but were upset by transitional pains or interactions they had around it and want to stick with X11 just-cause while getting some similar benefits. This arguably does describe some people but not sure it's a whole lot in the long run.
But who knows, maybe this could also make an easier to maintain XWayland some day, or a nice basis for implementing more esoteric X11 bits down the road vs. the older Xorg codebase.
It also vastly improved battery on my Dell Pro laptop. 58% battery used in 7h45m (light compilation day, but no suspend).
Not for the client, or if you want to write a wm and is forced to write a compositor.
And actually I'm not even even convinced about the server if talking about a minimal server like this that insists on DRI/GBM, and ditches all the old rendering cruft.
The future of WMs is, IMO, Arcan - https://arcan-fe.com/ - but that's an ambitious project and I don't blame the main developer for deliberately going out of his way to avoid advertising it before it's ready. In the meanwhile, Wayland and X11 both more-or-less work with the occasional major pain in the ass.
This definitely doesn't match my memory, and I was there :) Most of the good reasons remain unavailable in X11 to this day.
There definitely were some attempts to advance X11 that post-date Wayland, most notably the proposals by Keith Packard, but they never got much traction.
You two here don't mention any of the reasons. It is hard to discuss this when there are no specifics, so what was needed, and what was not added?
>Applications will be isolated from each other by default and can only interact with other applications either through a GUI prompt asking for permission, such as with screen recorders, where it will only be allowed to record the window specified or by explicitly giving the application permission before launched (such as a window manager or external compositor).
You realize that's worse, right? And to be clearer: core Wayland protocol does not have countless ways. It has zero.
Instead of a single protocol with the strong X11 reference X server the wayland compositors pick and choose between libinput, or libei, or libportal with the InputCapture PR, xdg-desktop-portal with the InputCapture interface, some I've probably missed, or maybe you have nothing at all (weston). It's a gamble if your choice of desktop environment and it's wayland compositor's non-core wayland protocols will match up with those the developer for $software chose. On X11 linux everything that works somewhere works everywhere. With the various waylands if you stay within your desktop's ecosystem you'll probably not notice, but go beyond it and you will.
Each wayland desktop pretty much runs it's own compositor with it's own set of third party libs because the wayland core protocol spec is very minimal. I would say incomplete. ref: https://wayland.app/protocols/
Tho admittedly kiosk-wm (https://github.com/JOT85/kiosk-wm) is much more succinct.
You could fork it. X11 hasn't shipped a major release since 2005, the likelihood of a complete overhaul making it upstream was slim to none even in 2009. X11 developers were better-off focusing on stability, and the Wayland devs moved on. There was no conspiracy to kill either project.
An X11 rewrite with some security baked in is an awesome approach. Will be watching!
I’m all for an X12.
If you take the time to read through that (very partial) list of cruft and footguns in X11 it probably makes it a little easier to understand why a clean-slate approach was able to attract momentum and why many hands-on involved developers were relatively tired of X11. Critics would of course respond that backwards compatibility is worth the effort and rewrites are often the wrong call, etc. It's the Python 2/3 debate and many others.
I remember Usenet.
X11 was built for multi-user terminals a kin to today’s Microsoft VDI garbage.
There’s some good. A lot of bad. And some WTF in there.
For example, in python 2 you could explicitly mark unicode text with u"...". That was actively BLOCKED with python 3.0 which supposedly was about unicode support! The irony was insane, they could of just no-oped the u"". I got totally sick of the "expert" language designers with no real world code shipping responsibilities lecturing me. Every post about this stuff was met by comments from pedantic idiots. So every string had to have a helper function around it. Total and absolute garbage. They still haven't explained to my satisifaction why not support u"..." to allow a transition more easily to 3.
Luckily sanity started prevailing around 3.5 and we started to see a progression - whoever was behind this should be thanked. The clueless unicode everything was walked back and we got % for bytes so you could work with network protocols again (where unicode would be STUPID to force given the installed base). We got u"" back.
By 3.6 we got back to reasonable path handling on windows and the 3 benefits started to come without antagonistic approaches / regressions from 2. But that was about 8 years? So that burnt a lot of the initial excitement.
It’s always drama and they’re the center of it.
(I’m joking of course, Merry Christmas)
Also happy winter solstice.
What's missing?
If you took people who absolutely never tried any computing, and gave them macos, windows, and for example Plasma, they would NOT consider windows or macos to be ready for the desktop. If you go 15 years back, even way more so.
even in the early 2000s, windows was so hilariously crappy that you had to make floppy disks to even get to install the thing. If PCs didnt come preloaded with windows, regular users would never ever be able to install it, versus the relative ease a typical linux distribution was to install. This is also one of the large reasons that when their windows slowed down due to being a piece of shit with 1000000 toolbars, people threw it out and bought a new, despite the fact that a reinstall would have solved it.
Well they certainly manage them better than x11 and wayland. What a fucking nuts thing to say. Are you rms?
I mean, maybe you have, but if you are not fussy then at worst MacOS is quirky and Windows and Linux are identical and merely have different icons.
If you pay a little bit of attention you will notice that on linux things seem more flexible and intuitive.
If you are very finnicky, there is nothing that comes close to X11 window managers when it comes to window management flexibility, innovation and power.
X11 window managers were a mixed bag. While there were a few standouts, most of the variation was in the degree to which they could be configured and how they were configured. There may be fewer compositors for Wayland because of the difficulty in developing them, but the ones that do exist do standout.
I say let X11 die, bury it, and never let it rise again.
Then we can all focus on making just one display server as good as possible.
As a user you can pass `--release` to `zig build` to request release mode. If the application doesn't want to pick for you, you'll get an error and then you can pick for yourself.
In this case, it looks like the author of Phoenix wants to choose ReleaseSafe as the official release mode of the application.
Phoenix is the name of my hometown, btw.
In X11 "screen" has a particular meaning, and only supporting a single screen doesn't preclude multi-monitor support or virtual desktops.
This is interesting to me, why would vsync being enabled mean that the desktop compositor needs to stick around for a full screen app?
This is true, although entertainingly, the "server" part has always been easily confused.
In X11, the "server" runs on your local machine, and the "client" frequently runs on a remote system.
Add to that that the user manages the ssh connection while the X connection is managed for them...
This is because of its mainframe style history and technically it does make sense, it's just that everybody else does things the other way around.
For the people who weren't around in the ancient mainframe times who end up messing with Linux for the first time, this is confusing for a while.
The way most people think about it, "client" is your local machine and "server" is the remote machine that has lots of applications and is potentially multi-user, but X turns that backwards. The big iron is the client and the relatively dumb terminal is the server.
The server is usually a remote machine, especially back in the time when "client-server" architecture was emerging in mainstream (business) vernacular.
This has been true for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_(computing)
Nevertheless, X11 "server" and "client" have confused very smart and highly technical people. I have had the entertainment of explaining it dozens of times, though rarely recently.
And honestly, still, a server is usually a remote machine in all common usage. When "the server's down", it is usually not a problem on your local machine.
[1] https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/unix-haters/x-window...
https://github.com/marler8997/zigx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWFLkHRIAQ
Compared to libX11, it avoids dynamic dependencies, uses less memory, and provides better error messages.
XLibre is trying to advance the existing implementation which Xorg abandoned, whereas Phoenix is writing a new, compatible server from scratch.
0. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver
I doubt the XLibre authors understand the X security model, either – they never do, in forks like this – and they've alienated most of the security researchers who might otherwise clean up after them.
Phoenix and Wayback are much more interesting projects, in my book. Wayback's designed to actually work, and I expect it to be production-ready much sooner; but I expect Phoenix to be the more technically interesting project, since it's deliberately breaking from the X11 spec.
That's all this comes down to. Every single fucking last thread about Wayland on HN is this way. Every fucking last one. Tall about the vocal minority. Just absurdity.
You have accessibility complaints and don't care about the coordinated efforts across toolkits to make a material improvement? Okay. But every single god damn other issue is a distro issue and people on HN insisting their Linux trial 10 years ago is still authoritative today. Fucking ridiculous.
Early contributor to sway and cosmic, most of the Wayland complaints you read are handwave-y bullshit, idk what else to say.
On X, I can run tools like xmacro or xdotool to automate the desktop to my heart's content. On Wayland, this isn't supported "for my security" and my remaining options boil down to either using a tool that works one level of abstraction lower (requires root and/or a daemon), or a tool made exclusively for my DE if one even exists. What used to be a cohesive environment with portable knowledge and tools is replaced by incomplete, broken, or outright missing tools and a complete lack of parity across DEs. For what? Am I supposed to be happy about this?
Moreover, people will condescend to you and insist your setup never worked, nobody ever used it, and nobody cares that it's going away. Plus, they state that you are just being difficult, if not delusional, when you say that you are quite happy with how things are. I mean, your way never worked, so how could it have been your way at all? You must be a troll, troll. Stop trolling.
[1] https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2025/technology
But I don't see how a X server implementation should avoid name collision with web frameworks.