The 26,000-Year Astronomical Monument Hidden in Plain Sight

(longnow.org)

227 points | by mkmk 3 hours ago

19 comments

  • krisoft 1 hour ago
    But is the star map there? This article seems to imply that it got demolished in 2022: https://www.oskarjwhansen.org/news/save-the-star-map

    If so that is somewhat ironic. A message intended to communicate a date to thousands of years into the future got demolished a mere 86 years after its creation due to a drainage issue and a contract dispute.

  • krisoft 1 hour ago
    I have once created a pendant to my friends’ wedding following a similar idea. A silver disk engraved one one side with the position of the planets and major moons at the moment of the ceremony. Fun thing is that the Galilean moons orbit fast enough that you can even read the intended minute. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DIpFTPOIP60/
    • gus_massa 26 minutes ago
      If you have a blog post with a few more technical details, it may be a nice submission for HN. (Do you have a few photos of the intermediate steps to share?)

      Some ideas/questions: How is it painted? Is it laser cut or by hand? Did you designed it? How did you do the calculations? Does Saturn have rings? Where is the cutoff? (No Neptune/Uranus/Fobos/Deimos/...) Have you tried to give a different size to each planet?

      PS: I showed the video to my older daughter that is interested in astronomy and she likes it.

    • BrandonY 42 minutes ago
      That's so cool! Is there a calculator somewhere that can convert to/from dates and solar system position charts?
  • throw0101a 2 hours ago
    More:

    > Due to the precession of the equinoxes (as well as the stars' proper motions), the role of North Star has passed from one star to another in the remote past, and will pass in the remote future. In 3000 BC, the faint star Thuban in the constellation Draco was the North Star, aligning within 0.1° distance from the celestial pole, the closest of any of the visible pole stars.[8][9] However, at magnitude 3.67 (fourth magnitude) it is only one-fifth as bright as Polaris, and today it is invisible in light-polluted urban skies.

    > During the 1st millennium BC, Beta Ursae Minoris (Kochab) was the bright star closest to the celestial pole, but it was never close enough to be taken as marking the pole, and the Greek navigator Pytheas in ca. 320 BC described the celestial pole as devoid of stars.[6][10] In the Roman era, the celestial pole was about equally distant between Polaris and Kochab.

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_star

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_pole

  • vedmakk 2 hours ago
    This is the kind of stuff I love about ancient architecture. It seems they were full of such clever things (or maybe only the few constructions which survived until today).

    Its nice to see that some people still care about creating such thoughtful art for modern constructions. It seems that most building of our time are just optimized for fast and efficient construction.

    I hope there are many more out there, so that Earth's Graham Hancock of the year 16000 has something to explore on his/her ayahuasca trip.

    • dylan604 2 hours ago
      When you had no electricity to produce light pollution, when you have no TV, printing press, or any other thing to distract your attention, you had plenty of time to look at the night sky. When that also means you didn't have a way to have a shared calendar, you paid more attention to the sky to know when the seasons were changing. When the changing of seasons were key into surviving, you gave it a lot of importance. It's hard to put that into perspective when we can just look at an app to see the specific time/date of astronomical events well into the future.
      • praveen9920 1 hour ago
        Having something built IRL would at least inspire a few to actually be interested in astronomy or star gazing.
    • sneak 52 minutes ago
      The buildings then were also optimized for fast and efficient construction.

      Those buildings are, of course, gone now.

  • breckinloggins 1 hour ago
    I somehow doubt there is any future version of me that regrets joining The Long Now Foundation, and work like this is the main reason why.

    If you're in SF you should pay them a visit and buy a coffee at The Interval; I think you'll find it worth the trip.

  • akshay326 3 hours ago
    > There is an angle for doubt, for sorrow, for hate, for joy, for contemplation, and for devotion.

    I’m so intrigued - what was going on inside Hansen's brain?

    • Liquix 2 hours ago
      Makes sense when talking about human postures and emotions.

      Victory/elation/worship corresponds to extending the arms above the head or in a "V" shape, sorrow/grief corresponds to dropping to the knees and holding the head in the hands, etc. These associations seem to persist despite language barriers and great spans of time.

  • flomo 16 minutes ago
    Thanks for this, at one point I tried to google this monument and didn't find much.
  • ifh-hn 3 hours ago
    I first heard about this in a Graham Hancock book. Found it a fascinating example of an attempt to encode a date that far distant future generations might understand (provided it survives).
  • DougN7 3 hours ago
    That was an excellent rabbit hole to go down while eating lunch :)
  • aebtebeten 3 hours ago
    For a hypothesis concerning the precession of the equinoxes and religious pantheons, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38761574
    • GrowingSideways 2 hours ago
      The concept of "religion" didn't exist until the 17th century or so. Let's not use it here.
      • tzs 2 hours ago
        You are confusing the thing with the category of the thing.

        Religion the category is only a few hundred years old. The things that fall under that category go back at least as far as Neanderthal times.

        • Aloisius 4 minutes ago
          The conceptualization of religion as a category, is actually quite a bit older. The idea that it was created recently was, well, created recently.
        • testaccount28 1 hour ago
          it's an interesting point, and i don't think it can be resolved quite so neatly. to the people building such monuments, or writing such texts, the activity may have been closer to what we now refer to as "history" or "natural philosophy" (or even "civic infrastructure").

          the fact that _now_, we have independent traditions referred to by those terms, and so categorize the ancient practices under "religion" is quite confusing, and it may be productive to make the distinction clear.

          for a modern example, suppose we build a skyscraper in such a way that it lines up with, or reflects the setting sun on the solstice. we would regard this as "architecture", not "religion". i would be quite offended if, some thousand years from now, the aesthetic decision is dismissed as primitive superstition.

          • Aloisius 54 minutes ago
            > i would be quite offended if, some thousand years from now, the aesthetic decision is dismissed as primitive superstition.

            Why? I can't imagine being offended if people today, ignorant of the true motivations, dismissed it as primitive superstition, let alone a thousand years from now when I'm long dead.

        • maebert 2 hours ago
          cf. "The Map is not the Territory"
      • MarcelOlsz 2 hours ago
        What?
        • tzs 2 hours ago
          Wikipedia says similar [1]:

          > The concept of "religion" was formed in the 16th and 17th centuries. Sacred texts like the Bible, the Quran, and others did not have a word or even a concept of religion in the original languages and neither did the people or the cultures in which these sacred texts were written

          That said, GrowingSideways is mistaken. He is confusing the thing with the category of the thing.

          [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religion

          • toasterlovin 50 minutes ago
            > or even a concept of religion in the original languages

            IMO this and the sources it cites are wrong. A huge chunk of the Old Testament is about how God had to keep sending prophets to tell the Israelites to stop worshipping other deities. So while they may not have had a single word that was equivalent to 'religion,' they clearly possessed the same concept. They would just use the phrase "worshipping other gods."

        • GrowingSideways 2 hours ago
          [dead]
  • lalos 2 hours ago
    > Having this one fixed point in the sky is the foundation of all celestial navigation.

    Only in the northern hemisphere.

  • avhception 2 hours ago
    Haha, I clicked without reading the URL. Then I read the "01931" in the text, immediately looked at the URL and of course it was longnow.org. Brought a smile to my face.
  • kraig911 2 hours ago
    I loved this. I wish I had the ability to do the same innocuous deep dive into a easter egg in code - but I fear it would never be discovered at this rate of which AI is generating similar stuff. But much like this article maybe there's a time and place.
  • giraffe_lady 2 hours ago
    In the extremely interesting book about water, cadillac desert, there is a great discussion with a scholar of some kind, I think an archeologist, about the large western US dams and the future. The gist is that the reservoirs will eventually silt up and disappear, but the dams will remain for thousands of years. The silted lakes will preserve clear evidence of their construction in the geologic record of these regions.

    We will quite plausibly be known as the dam builder civilization, as these artifacts could very easily outlast the memory of what we call ourselves. It is fitting to embellish them in this way.

  • ProllyInfamous 2 hours ago
    During DEF CON XX, I got bored/overwhelmed (it was not my first year attending) — so I decided to rent a car and visit Hoover Dam (this was before the bypass bridge was completed). I drove through the desert 100mph+, in my own little HST jaunt, searching for nothing but concrete's high water mark.

    The statues in OP's article are absolutely beautiful examples of Art Deco / 1930s Americana (my local post office was built then, too, and has eaglettes of similar [but smaller] design). I had no idea they were out there until stumbling upon them, and they definitely leave a lasting impression of our forefather's imposing presence. America, fuck yeah!

    Wish I had then-known about this "clock," which is definitely hidden in plain sight. Wish we had similarly-lavish federal budgets, today. But worth visiting, both article, statues & dam.

  • kazinator 2 hours ago
    > construction of the dam began in 01931

    Person in far future:

    Was that in the original 01931 as in 1931? Or is that the usual truncation of 101931, since most relevant dates are in this decamillennium?

    Leading zeros don't do what you think they do; you need look no further than how people say 03 when they mean 2003. A leading zero does not unambiguously say "there are no implied nonzero digits to the left of this zero".

    Just, stop.

    Or find some other convention, like, say, =1931. The = means, this is an exact value and not some value truncated modulo a power of ten.

    • ofalkaed 1 hour ago
      It is a convention of The Long Now Foundation to get people to think of time in terms of 10k years instead of a lifetime at best. It goes hand in hand with their 10k year clock.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_of_the_Long_Now

      • zamadatix 32 minutes ago
        I think they are speaking to, not ignorant of, this.
      • kazinator 1 hour ago
        > 10k year clock

        a.k.a. cuckoo clock

    • GavinMcG 34 minutes ago
      Why do you imagine that =1931 wouldn’t be equally confusing in some future decamillenium? Arabic numerals have only been around for (charitably) 0.12 decamillenia. Sorry, =.12 decamillenia.
    • eddieh 23 minutes ago
      error: invalid digit '9' in octal constant
    • bregma 1 hour ago
      I just look at it and think someone can't even count to 010 in octal.
  • calibas 2 hours ago
    Sounds like it's about the precession of the equinoxes and the new "Age of Aquarius".
  • maximgeorge 12 minutes ago
    [dead]