Once I verify a home video product works as intended I remove its network connection and never connect it again. I then leave its static ip address configured and block any traffic from it on the off chance it’s ever connected again.
The sole exception is my PlayStation 5. I use apps on it for all streaming.
I also had to take this approach with my LG TV. The OS actually had its use for a while but Apple TV has become my driver. I no longer wish to consent to LG’s EULAs which are starting to look like the legal corpus of a small nation. I’m also not interested in their software updates. Internet privileges: revoked.
It’s concerning nonetheless as others are pointing out that in the current trajectory the TVs may soon refuse to display any content unless connected.
I’ve read reports of these devices turning on wifi and auto connecting to known public wifi networks. Seems we went from a generation of technologists dismissing Stallman as paranoid to one living in his nightmare and not being appropriately familiar with his work, issues of art vs artist aside.
Stallman has always been right. Hes a radical, but he was always been right. He is basically prescient with seeing how private software would be used. He was just so early that people thought he was a crazy radical, but now he seems to be stricken with a case of being Cassandra.
Business idea: a signal-jamming cover for your 65-inch TV.
It looks like shit, is difficult to install, and costs an arm and a leg, but at least it prevents egregious privacy violations from your average chaebol or CCP-intervened corporation!
The thing stopped being so needy when I neutered its internet access. Maybe it’s still exfiltrating data but at least it has stopped making me anxious that I may need to consult a civil rights lawyer every time I saw their EULA.
You don't really get a lot of options anymore. When people around don't really care and just buy this junk because it's cheap, and they "need" a new TV ever three to four years, for some reason, then you get priced out of the market pretty quickly. Even if you look for TV, and yes I want a TV, not a monitor, without all this junk, there's not really any options available locally anymore. I believe my only option is the Thompson Easy TV, which is great, if I needed a 43" TV or lower.
Apparently I can attempt to import one from Romania, but that seems fairly complicated. Even sites that recommend dumb TVs just recommend SmartTVs that works well as a dumb TV.
Who cares? Companies are using your need to have the latest and greatest against you. It's overt manipulation. I'd rather watch an old CRT or nothing at all than allow some company to forcefully show me ads.
It's ridiculous that going to a Target/Bestbuy/etc you cannot find any non-smart TVs generally. I have had several older models of non-smart tvs that suddenly stop working after a few years. It's disgusting
It's either because the non-ad-driven tvs cost more, resulting in too few sales to sustain (because no lifetime revenue from data sales) or the lifetime revenue from data sales is so profitable that companies take the risk on being undercut by a market entrant that will sell dumb tvs.
My guess is that the vast majority of people will trade data for a cheaper price point every time (my wife is certainly one of these people), so the market just can't support the volume of sales necessary to make the price point of dumb tvs competitive.
Pro tip for devices that refuse to simply remove working WiFi credentials (cough Samsung), is to connect them to a different “dummy” WiFi and then simply turn that off.
I’ve yet to see a device that caches more than one set of credentials. But I suppose it’s only a matter of time.
Then we shall only ever connect to a throwaway wifi ssid created for the sole purpose of setting up that TV and deleted promptly afterwards.
Samsung will then use NFC / QuickShare transient hotspot to helpfully sync all useful info from your Samsung phone nearby.
Then we block that IP address or MAC ID from router side.
Then smart TVs will switch to open mesh networks hosted by unsuspecting ISP customer boxes in neighborhood.
And maybe even starlink.
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Maybe wifi standard should stop using static passwords and create a device specific hash to let it connect. Wifi admin should get to approve each device connection request.
I have a TCL so maybe it's different, but did your TVs require connection to set up?
The TCL can still act as a HDMI switch with CEC, and that can be labeled through the remote if you want, so there was never any need to connect to a network.
This is outrageous and we need to stand up against it. You're merely avoiding the danger of uber-enshittification of hardware (now once software is enshittified enough), but this will crawl further and further. Meanwhile rating companies are lowering ratings of firms that DO NOT have 'subscription model' in their products, that's why we're intended to pay for enabling heating in car seats from now on.
"But while BMW ultimately backed down over heated seats, the company still believes in the features-as-a-service model, and will continue to offer post-purchase upgrades through its ConnectedDrive platform. "
I drive a Cupra (a Spanish brand, a spinoff of SEAT, owned by Volkswagen) and when I was driving my car out of the dealership I had to tell the salesman I was not interested in signing up for the free app they were trying to foist me. He was dumbfounded. The model was selling like hotcakes yet I was the first customer that had outright refused to sign up for their shitty app. They pulled off the inevitable switcheroo, it now costs a monthly fee and I don’t want to think about what insidious things they can do with it.
And then they will complain that Chinese company are simply crushing them... As a European, I have been buying only Asian cars for ages as I don't want to play their "add options" game, and I think that more and more people are tired of that.
The enshittification and lack of market understanding (or care) of the major European car brands is a topic by itself. They may be rightfully complaining right now but a lot of their woes are self inflicted.
The TV manufacturers know they can get a guaranteed $30-50/year spliff out of the platform vendors per unit for allowing the shitware in the first place and that these TVs will last long enough to get them a nice several hundred dollar subsidy on the TV.
I’m afraid there’s not going to be a great affordable path out of this hypersubsidized trap we’ve set the market into.
Consumers just keep putting up with it. TVs are not a necessity; it's not like electric bills or healthcare. There are more ways to consume content than ever before, and more content available than ever before. Not owning a TV in the 80s or 90s was something of a big deal. Now, it couldn't matter less. But people are still putting up with whatever crap manufacturers are putting out. It should be easy to vote with wallet (even that means simply not purchasing a TV) but consumers just keep buying this crap.
Here could some European company that already makes tv to step in and create something good, with no ads, and even better if they promise to open the sourcecode, bootloader etc... Something like Philips for example. But I guess they are too busy making lightbulbs to notice that they could fill that gap on the TV market space.
Ughh.. I recently turned on my 1000EUR+ LG Oled TV to find that it had automatically installed a Copilot app.. And keeps doing it every few days.
Is there any smart TV that I can actually just use a TV how I want? Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
Protection of one's attention is our generation's luxury product.
Whether it's the TV hardware or the streaming service in your house, your standard of living is now judged by whether you pay extra for the ad-free tier.
Apple tends to skew luxury purchase, so it makes sense it hasn't been riddled with adware yet. The Apple logo is a status symbol that you're not being bombarded with ads in every corner of underutilized screen real-estate.
Right, never give a TV internet access now. That's where we are.
This means they can't surveil, brick, or change your hardware after you bought it.
So yes, then add whatever dongles to provide content. If the dongle turns bad (evil), chuck it and get a different kind. You preserve your privacy, hardware ownership rights, and freedom to choose.
I'll believe it when I see it. The numbers simply don't pencil out. Streaming ads over cellular networks is going to be insanely expensive at rates that IOT/esim providers are currently offering. Not to mention that most people would connect to wifi anyways so they can watch neflix or whatever without a second device. If a 5G module costs $25 but only 10% of people actually never connect to wifi, you're basically paying $250 just to get that incremental customer connected.
Not for ads, but maybe the numbers work out if you're selling intel. How much is a household's watching habits worth on the market? How about keyword mentions in the room?
One workaround is to buy a computer monitor and use that instead. Most of those are still pretty dumb HDMI or USB terminals that you can plug any signal source into. They don't come in huge sizes like TVs (although search "digital signage" for some options), and you'll need a dedicated sound speaker system, but this route could be an option.
> Is there any smart TV that I can actually just use a TV how I want?
I’ve heard that large computer monitors and TVs intended to be used as displays can be used without connecting them to a network.
> Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
An Apple TV is a good choice even otherwise. I’ve never seen a smoother and quicker interface on a native Smart TV (granted that I’ve only seen Android and webOS). I use my Apple TV as the only network connected device while my TV is not connected to any network ever. Once in a while, I update the TV’s firmware by downloading it to a thumb drive and plugging that into the USB port of the TV.
The default Google launcher is a disgusting mess. But since it is an Android, you do not have to use it and can use one of the many ad free ones. I use Projectivy
I don't have a reference, but I remember reading that some Samsung TVs require internet access to get past initial setup and allow access to HDMI. So we might already be here..
IF its an android, connect to it via ADB and disable all the BS apps, even launcher. I am using projectivity launcher on mine, even has child lock which we really need. No ads or popups etc at all. YouTube is all we watch on this TV anyway, and retro gaming and movies.
I also have Nvidia Shield connected to it, that one is setup the same way.
It is totally bonkers. For long time the low tech recommendation (without setting rules on router/firewall) was to never connect TV to network, and use cheap TV box, to use streaming services.
And then community's favorite - TiVo - started to show their own ads. Everything based on Android TV is also hit or miss. And might get enshitified with an update at any time. I think NVidia Shield is the only device other than AppleTV that works as expected. Only it didn't have an hardware upgrade in 5+ years.
It's unfortunate that the 2020s era Apple is so big/rich, in a way. Old Apple used to dabble in all sorts of niches, but now they need to sell 10M units/year to move the needle. So they'll never just make a TV now.
I bought a Sony Android TV a few years back which has yet to be enshitified - doesn't shove ads or shovelware down my throat, acts like a TV. It's a model made for the Japanese market though and they may have incentives to play nice with domestic customers.
Fire Stick/Fire TV is a pretty dreadful experience as it is. Video ads on the home screen, but at least you can currently install custom apps. No way to replace the home screen.
We might watch it “live”, but it’s through a TiVo, and not the tuner in the TV. Usually, though, we start the few scheduled shows we watch 30-60m late to be able to skip commercials.
Not the person you were responding to but I work at a TV station here in the US. What kind of shows do you like? My husband and I are getting into "The Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins" if you want a new show. If new episodes of a long running show is fine, I still relax to Jeopardy when I can. If you don't stream anything, you can usually still find golf on the weekends which we use for our cats. :)
Why you would want your TV Manufacturer to control the experience at this point I have no idea. 5-6 years ago, we were a Roku only household. Now we are Apple TV all the way and haven’t looked back.
I have a rooted LG WebOS TV. It's really nice. I can ssh into it. It's on a dedicated VLAN which has all LG domains and IP firewalled off. It can connect to Youtube, using a version of the Youtube app with integrated adblocker and sponsorblock. It's absolute superb.
Do you have any recommended links for such a setup? I don’t connect my TV to the network and use it with an Apple TV. But I’m interested to know more on this.
If not, you can try and find one on Ebay or local classifieds that is. That's the hardest part.
Then you setup a VLAN (I use OpenWRT, which has great support for this) and some firewall rules that forbid all traffic that isn't port 80 or 443. Then you create a dnsmasq blacklist for all the LG domains (good list is [1]).
The other day I was at a spa, they had a TV in the background showing a channel with relaxing images, but after 5 minutes ads started playing.I don't think the spa staff even knew about it. we're fucked
If someone was offering you a sweet but in exchange they punched you in the face, you'd probably question whether the sweet was really worth it. Unless, of course, you're addicted to the sweets.
Time to kick the addiction. Seek out ways to spend your time that are good for you and/or others.
It's not sweets and it's not an addiction, not everything on TV is for mindless consumption. The viewer is not who's at fault here. The right mindset is not "accept their terms or give up", it's "make your voice heard and try to make the manufacturers change their practices".
At 100" the packaging, shipping from china, the delivery, etc. add have to be so much more than $1k.
I bought a 100" TV with setup and it was only $1600. I don't know how they make money on that with all the logistics required. Two people for delivery, two different people for the wall hanging, all the materials for the packaging, and that is just to get it to my house.
Shipping from China to a US coastal warehouse is probably modestly under $200, including packaging, assuming it's shipped in a 40" container. Possibly less if there's other cargo that can be used to fill the remaining space.
I suspect the domestic costs are really dependent on volume (like, can you ship a container of 45 TVs to a warehouse near NYC or do you have to ship each unit individually) and I don't feel confident estimating that side of it.
You can buy a $5k TV and its startup time, auto-play adware at the Home Screen, constant OS popup notification BS, etc are almost universal.
You can't buy your way out of scammy experiences anymore because the market has figured out the people most able to afford buying their way out of it are the highest value ad/scam targets.
Hisense has never operated at the top end of the spectrum. They can sell these TVs for $1000 because they're buying the cheapest panels that the actual high-end TVs aren't using.
It's amazing how cheap Hisense TVs are, but the two we got are developing really bad white spots just outside the warranty period. You get what you pay for I guess.
Depends on your definition of ”ads”. As someone deep in the apple ecosystem without a subscription to Music or Apple TV I get regular full screen promotions/ads to subscribe when all I want to do is listen or watch my bought content.
I'm not so sure this is really a free market equilibrium. There are two effects which explain the prevalence of ads even if consumers are willing to pay more for ad-free products:
- Imperfect information, aka Market for Lemons: It can be hard to find out how prevalent ads will be when buying a product. Consumers often make a purchasing decision without knowledge about ads.
- Changing terms after lock-in, aka Enshittification: Manufacturers (like Hisense here) can add advertising to products after consumers have already bought them. Initially, consumers have negotiation power since they can freely choose a product, but later they are locked in and cannot easily react to the manufacturer changing the product to their detriment.
We just gave away our 55" Hisense to our friend. I hope she doesn't think it means we hate her now. ;)
(Side note: not having a TV in the living space allowed us to freely design it to be a living space.)
The sole exception is my PlayStation 5. I use apps on it for all streaming.
It’s concerning nonetheless as others are pointing out that in the current trajectory the TVs may soon refuse to display any content unless connected.
It looks like shit, is difficult to install, and costs an arm and a leg, but at least it prevents egregious privacy violations from your average chaebol or CCP-intervened corporation!
Not that I've done it, I don't get enough value out of it to justify the hassle or the privacy intrusion.
Apparently I can attempt to import one from Romania, but that seems fairly complicated. Even sites that recommend dumb TVs just recommend SmartTVs that works well as a dumb TV.
My guess is that the vast majority of people will trade data for a cheaper price point every time (my wife is certainly one of these people), so the market just can't support the volume of sales necessary to make the price point of dumb tvs competitive.
I expect this to happen if enough people block ads on TVs. (They'll probably promote it as a "backup connection" or something.)
I’ve yet to see a device that caches more than one set of credentials. But I suppose it’s only a matter of time.
Then we shall only ever connect to a throwaway wifi ssid created for the sole purpose of setting up that TV and deleted promptly afterwards.
Samsung will then use NFC / QuickShare transient hotspot to helpfully sync all useful info from your Samsung phone nearby.
Then we block that IP address or MAC ID from router side.
Then smart TVs will switch to open mesh networks hosted by unsuspecting ISP customer boxes in neighborhood.
And maybe even starlink.
=====
Maybe wifi standard should stop using static passwords and create a device specific hash to let it connect. Wifi admin should get to approve each device connection request.
Although I'm not sure my family will be too happy.
The TCL can still act as a HDMI switch with CEC, and that can be labeled through the remote if you want, so there was never any need to connect to a network.
"But while BMW ultimately backed down over heated seats, the company still believes in the features-as-a-service model, and will continue to offer post-purchase upgrades through its ConnectedDrive platform. "
I’m afraid there’s not going to be a great affordable path out of this hypersubsidized trap we’ve set the market into.
Is there any smart TV that I can actually just use a TV how I want? Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
Whether it's the TV hardware or the streaming service in your house, your standard of living is now judged by whether you pay extra for the ad-free tier.
Apple tends to skew luxury purchase, so it makes sense it hasn't been riddled with adware yet. The Apple logo is a status symbol that you're not being bombarded with ads in every corner of underutilized screen real-estate.
This means they can't surveil, brick, or change your hardware after you bought it.
So yes, then add whatever dongles to provide content. If the dongle turns bad (evil), chuck it and get a different kind. You preserve your privacy, hardware ownership rights, and freedom to choose.
Had this setup on different tvs for 10+ years, can confirm it is excellent.
I’ve heard that large computer monitors and TVs intended to be used as displays can be used without connecting them to a network.
> Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
An Apple TV is a good choice even otherwise. I’ve never seen a smoother and quicker interface on a native Smart TV (granted that I’ve only seen Android and webOS). I use my Apple TV as the only network connected device while my TV is not connected to any network ever. Once in a while, I update the TV’s firmware by downloading it to a thumb drive and plugging that into the USB port of the TV.
At least until TV makers wise up to that strategy and build a TV that requires internet access to unlock the HDMI port, that's the way to go.
Why would this be something that you're "reduced" to? Why would it be a bad thing?
I also have Nvidia Shield connected to it, that one is setup the same way.
Nowadays, you have to wait for the thing to finish booting.
In the future, you have to wait for the ads to finish playing?
Does anyone watch linear TV other than for sport and news?
Everything else (movies, TV shows) is through streaming apps, no?
Why you would want your TV Manufacturer to control the experience at this point I have no idea. 5-6 years ago, we were a Roku only household. Now we are Apple TV all the way and haven’t looked back.
If not, you can try and find one on Ebay or local classifieds that is. That's the hardest part.
Then you setup a VLAN (I use OpenWRT, which has great support for this) and some firewall rules that forbid all traffic that isn't port 80 or 443. Then you create a dnsmasq blacklist for all the LG domains (good list is [1]).
Then you install this: https://github.com/webosbrew/youtube-webos
Enjoy Youtube on a large screen under your control without ads, and without annoying sponsors.
[1] https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hagezi/dns-blocklists/main...
Time to kick the addiction. Seek out ways to spend your time that are good for you and/or others.
I bought a 100" TV with setup and it was only $1600. I don't know how they make money on that with all the logistics required. Two people for delivery, two different people for the wall hanging, all the materials for the packaging, and that is just to get it to my house.
I suspect the domestic costs are really dependent on volume (like, can you ship a container of 45 TVs to a warehouse near NYC or do you have to ship each unit individually) and I don't feel confident estimating that side of it.
You can buy a $5k TV and its startup time, auto-play adware at the Home Screen, constant OS popup notification BS, etc are almost universal.
You can't buy your way out of scammy experiences anymore because the market has figured out the people most able to afford buying their way out of it are the highest value ad/scam targets.
- Imperfect information, aka Market for Lemons: It can be hard to find out how prevalent ads will be when buying a product. Consumers often make a purchasing decision without knowledge about ads.
- Changing terms after lock-in, aka Enshittification: Manufacturers (like Hisense here) can add advertising to products after consumers have already bought them. Initially, consumers have negotiation power since they can freely choose a product, but later they are locked in and cannot easily react to the manufacturer changing the product to their detriment.