18 comments

  • jeffreygoesto 11 minutes ago
    Old ist new I guess. This is independent of whether A"I" or a human executes, the point is that you need this if specifying and execution lie apart, be it in time or space. This is basically the whole point of the V-Model and processes (if used correctly as a tool and not preferred as goals) and was already researched an formalized in the 60s and 70s.
  • brendanmc6 2 hours ago
    Author here, if you don't want to read all that, I'll post one excerpt that I think sums it up nicely:

    > My point is, the spec must live somewhere, even if you don’t write it down. The spec is what you want the software to be. It often exists only in your head or in conversations. You and your team and your business will always care what the spec says, and that’s never going to change. So you’re better off writing it down now! And I think that a plain old list of acceptance criteria is a good place to start. (That’s really all that `feature.yaml` is.)

    • beshrkayali 6 minutes ago
      I wrote something similar recently about how agent-generated code lacks the institutional memory that human-written code has. There's nobody to ask why a decision was made (1).

      “Specsmaxxing” is basically the right response to this. When you can't rely on authorial memory, you have to put the intent somewhere durable. Specs become the source of truth by default if we continue down the road of AI generated code.

      1: https://ossature.dev/blog/ai-generated-code-has-no-author/

    • gnat 53 minutes ago
      Nice! Your spec-maxxing is very resonant. I've been doing working with explicit requirements: elicit them from conversation with me or introspecting another piece of software; one-shot from them; and keep them up-to-date as I do the "old man shouts at Claude" iterations after whatever one-shotting came up with.

      Unlike you, I wish for the LLM to do as much of the work as possible -- but "as possible" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. I'm still trying to get clear on exactly where I am needed and where Opus and iterations will get there eventually.

      It has really challenged me to get clearer on what a requirement is vs a constraint (e.g., "you don't get to reinvent the database schema, we're building part of a larger system"). And I still battle with when and how to specify UI behaviours: so much UI is implicit, and it seems quite daunting to have to specify so much to get it working. I have new respect for whoever wrote the undoubtedly bajillion tests for Flutter and other UI toolkits.

      • gnat 43 minutes ago
        Forgot to add: I get several benefits from doing this.

        1. Specifications that live outside the code. We have a lot of code for which "what should this do?" is a subjective answer, because "what was this written to do?" is either oral legend or lost in time. As future Claude sessions add new features, this is how Claude can remember what was intentional in the existing code and what were accidents of implementation. And they're useful for documenters, support, etc.

        2. Specifications that stay up to date as code is written. No spec survives first contact with the enemy (implementation in the real world). "Huh, there are TWO statuses for Missing orders, but we wrote this assuming just one. How do we display them? Which are we setting or is it configurable?" etc. Implementer finds things the specifier got wrong about reality, things the specifier missed that need to be specified/decided, and testing finds what they both missed.

        I have a colleague working on saving architecture decisions, and his description of it feels like a higher-abstraction version of my saving and maintaining requirements.

        • energy123 32 minutes ago
          I do (1) the same but (2) differently. In my workflow, (2) are AI generated specs using human written (1) as the input. It's an intermediate stage between (1) and the codebase, allowing for a gradual token expansion from 30k to 250k to the final code which is 2-3M. The benefit I've found with this approach is it gives the AI a way to iterate on the details of whole system in one context window, whereas fitting the whole codebase into one prompt is impossible. The code is then nothing more than a style transfer from (2).
    • nalpha 34 minutes ago
      What's the difference between this and Jira. Your specs already live somewhere, it's where you defined them. That's why it's nice to put the Jira ticket number in your code / commit, so you can refer back to the spec when something breaks
      • cowanon77 0 minutes ago
        Jira is only a set of changes though. What happens on a long (10+ year) and complex (10+) developer project with many changes and revisions? Eventually you need an explicit specification that itself has a "current state", and a change log. Theoretically you could generate this from Jira, but in my experience it eventually became a mess on any larger project that didn't have explicit and maintained writen requirements.
      • Diti 4 minutes ago
        What about when you migrate away from Jira, or when there’s a Cloudflare outage?
    • DonHopkins 19 minutes ago
      Great idea -- just one suggestion if you want it to catch on: perform some IncelCultureMinning on the nomenclature.

      AI Slop is terrible, but Clavicular's culture is so much worse. At least ai slop doesn't recommend abusing crystal meth and hitting yourself in the face with a hammer. Using his terminology doesn't seem wise or help your case.

      For anyone missing the reference, SNL has a pretty good explainer:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XMPLdiXB1k

    • slopinthebag 43 minutes ago
      I actually read it all since it did not contain any hints of being AI generated (although I wouldn't be surprised to learn you did use AI to write it), so thank you for that. It's kind of crazy how I now have the default expectation that posts posted here are AI slop with little thought or care put in.

      I am also stealing the idea of talking to LLMs as if it's an email. So funny, we need to be joymaxxing a bit more I think :)

  • jFriedensreich 18 minutes ago
    Where is the part where the author overcomes ai psychosis? Reads like digging in deeper and deeper.
    • wiseowise 1 minute ago
      That’s the best part: you don’t. “You would extend the prompt to improve it”. They’ll just ask Claude to write an AI tool to overcome psychosis (the program will spam Anthropic servers with racial slurs which will promptly cause ban of the user, success).
  • colinmarc 55 minutes ago
    Wow - I love programming in YAML! You know what would make this really fun? Sprinkle in some Jinja. Then we'll be cooking with gas.
    • hansmayer 5 minutes ago
      :) Here is a crazy thought - what if we had some kind of a narrowed down, specific subset of normal language which would translate into specific computer-level instructions. So for example, instead of telling computer to read something from a file and transform it in a certain way, you actually had a specific instruction to open a file, which worked the same each time you used it and guaranteed to fail if you used it the wrong way? Wow, the possibilities are endless :)
    • grunder_advice 28 minutes ago
      Exactly. At some point, the specification becomes so complex, it's easier to just write the code yourself.

      It's why famously, programmers always say, the code is the documentation, because writing detailed docs is very tedious and nobody wants to do it.

      • bonesss 12 minutes ago
        There are middle-ways.

        Behaviour Driven Development or Spec Driven Development are, loosely, forms of Test Driven Development where you encode the specification into the code base. No impedance, full insight, formality through code.

        I think people get really dogmatic about “test” projects, but with a touch of effort a unit test harness can be split up into integration tests, acceptance tests, and specification compliance tests. Pull the data out as human readable reports and you have a living, verifiable, specification.

        Particularly using something comparable to back-ticks in F#, which let test names be defined with spaces and punctuation (ie “fulfills requirement 5.A.1, timeouts fail gracefully on mobile”), you can create specific layers of compiled, versioned, and verifiable specification baked into the codebase and available for PMs and testers and clients and approval committees.

    • photios 50 minutes ago
      Dreaming about ` | nindent 12` in my specs! :D
  • wiseowise 5 minutes ago
    What is it with people and procrastinating with the most useless shit you can imagine?

    First it was choice of editor: people were micro optimizing every aspect of their typing experience, editor wars where people would literally slaughter over suggesting another camp.

    Editor wars v2: IDEs arrived and second editor war began.

    Revenge of the note taking apps: Obsidian/Roam/Joplin/Apple Notes/Logseq. Just one plugin, just one more knowledge graph, bro, and I’ll have peak productivity. 10x is almost here.

    AI: you’re witnessing it now.

    Do people NOT have anything else in life? How are y’all finding time to do all of this shit? Are you doing it on company time? Do you have hobbies, do you learn foreign languages, travel, have kids or spouses, drive a car, other thousand “normie” things outside of staring at the freaking monitor or thinking about this shit 24/7? Did I miss the invention of a Time Machine?

  • arikrahman 1 hour ago
    I use OpenSpec for my spec management, and I scrolled down to the comparison. The gripe seems to be with a semantic difference. Specs describing a current system is the basis for AS/IS Gap Analysis.

    Also, I mainly pursue these tools so that I can have AI accelerate this process and broker an agreement after negotiating specs with the agent.

    • jochem9 8 minutes ago
      I'm also doing openspec for a few months now and it's really good if you invest enough in the specs (in the beginning I skimmed over much, now I pay attention to all details and fix anything that's wrong or where I see a gap).

      The one thing I like that OP brings is to tie specs and code together. The openspec flow does help a lot in keeping code synced with specs, but when a spec changes, AI needs to find the relevant code to change it. It's pretty easy to miss something in large codebase (especially when there is lots of legacy stuff).

      Being able to search for numbered spec tags to find relevant bits of code makes it much more likely to find what needs to be changed (and probably with less token use too).

    • energy123 1 hour ago
      I can see one benefit to a structured yaml for specs like the OP is doing: it gives you more control over what you include in the context window. But coming up with a good schema that doesn't handicap you or add cognitive burden, compared to the freeform flexibility of md/txt, is a challenge.
      • arikrahman 51 minutes ago
        If the selling point is a new file format for spec management, it would be more interesting to provide an offering with org-mode. The author admits they were unaware of other pre-existing solutions before this project so I am providing context to their critique of OpenSpec.
  • jwpapi 41 minutes ago
    And once you’ve written all these specs you realize it became so slow that it’s faster to do it yourself in editor
  • wesselbindt 1 hour ago
    I'm still confused as to why folks don't just write executable specs.
    • eterm 26 minutes ago
      Ambiguity is the grease that keeps everything turning.
    • cenamus 47 minutes ago
      So basically tests?
      • MoreQARespect 24 minutes ago
        Yes, except a test can be turing complete - i.e. code.

        An executable spec like gherkin or hitchstory is config - it has no loops or conditionals.

    • carlbarrdahl 55 minutes ago
      Could you expand on this?
      • booi 54 minutes ago
        code
        • arikrahman 48 minutes ago
          Literate programming would provide specs and code instead of working backwards from hard coded functions to figure out specs.
    • fudgeonastick 49 minutes ago
      If you're confused, and have tried Opus for coding, I'm keen to hear what problems or workflows it's not good at.

      If you're genuinely confused, and haven't tried Opus for coding, then it's not surprising you're confused!

      It is also okay for you to just not like the idea of LLMs for coding (but say that!).

      • oytis 36 minutes ago
        That's what the article is about - overcoming problems with AI cooding tools using specs in Yaml. If we've got that far, it might be better to write specs in a proper programming language instead and skip the AI layer altogether
  • photios 48 minutes ago
    Yesterday I heard about lat.md [1] which seems to have similar ideas about annotating code with spec refs. I now need to try them both.

    [1] https://www.lat.md/

  • wismwasm 1 hour ago
    • brendanmc6 24 minutes ago
      Indeed I have a lot of catch up to do, will spend some time with the popular tools before I go too much further down this road.
    • arikrahman 47 minutes ago
      That was my initial thought when reading the headline but the author states they didn't know it existed before doing this project and critiques it.
  • augment_me 54 minutes ago
    Completely subjective take, but I feel like 95% of these "tools" that are prompt-engineering inventions created by the authors with their bias and to suit their needs don't have anything supporting them besides the authors' subjective experience.

    I have seen the same idea with processes, pipelines, lists, bullet points, jsons, yamls, trees, prioritization queues all for LLM context and instruction alignment. It's like the authors take the structure they are familiar with, and go 100% in on it until it provides value for them and then they think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

    I would like, for once, to see some kind of exploration/abalation against other methods. Or even better, a tool that uses your data to figure out your personal bias and structure preference for writing specs, so that you can have a way of providing yourself value.

  • hansmayer 14 minutes ago
    > We are entering the post-slop era. My software is more robust, better tested, better integrated, and more observable than ever before. And my velocity keeps increasing!

    Don't we just love the hard fact conclusions based on sample size N=1 and hand-waving arguments?

  • mrbnprck 18 minutes ago
    Could it be that slop PRs are less frequently rejected/commented due to (unfortunate) increased acceptance of it? As it turns out when maxxing AI on leaf parts of a program, the quality of the code doesn't matter that much anymore when compared to building the fundament.
  • imiric 12 minutes ago
    I'm tired, boss.

    This industry has become a parody of itself, and people are celebrating.

  • zarzavat 24 minutes ago
    YAML is one of the worst technologies ever invented, it has more warts than features. One of the benefits of LLMs is that they can write YAML for me, wherever I am forced to use it.

    Otherwise, I like the idea of machine-readable specs.

  • up-n-atom 1 hour ago
    the token usage isn’t sustainable. formal english is a barrier but requirement for specification. brevity is the language of money and that’s the premise of management using ai.

    fyi language alone can’t define/describe requirements which is why UML existed.

    • jstanley 1 hour ago
      Natural language is a fully general system and can define and describe everything.

      You could deterministically process any UML diagram into a prose equivalent.

      And in fact you couldn't do the other way around (any prose -> UML) because UML is less powerful than natural language and actually can't express everything that natural language can.

      • rzzzt 35 minutes ago
        There are also diagram notation languages and LLMs are happy to both consume and produce e.g. Mermaid.
    • ako 1 hour ago
      I think uml exists to help humans understand and communicate specifications, not because language alone is insufficient.
      • null_ptr1 43 minutes ago
        I mean, if you can't agree on what UML is, then what hope do you have to agree on what the spec says?
  • ltbarcly3 24 minutes ago
    Grindmaxxing, a long form blog post that is actually just an advertisement for his website.
    • brendanmc6 18 minutes ago
      Should I apologize for being excited about something I built and use daily and for wanting people to try it, discuss it, critique it? Not sure by the tone of your message.
      • hansmayer 3 minutes ago
        Read the room. What you "built" is neither exciting, nor something most people want to "try". Why? Because just like other AI boosters, you are still trying to somehow optimise the usage of natural language to make it work. But it will never "work" because the way the stochastic ML system is built, it has a failure built into the system.